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Yawn... another day, another broad brush attack on Republicans.

By the way, Limbaugh is hardly the first to hope a President's agenda fails... Ask Jim Carville.

First, we both know what the GOP means by "hoping the President fails".

Second, you forgot about the Free State Project, which advocates the migration of libertarians to New Hampshire.

And really, that aim's OK by me; I very much sympathize.

Listen, the United States government does not possess intrinsic value; it's only worth preserving so long as it protects and serves the People via certain prescribed functions. The more it deviates outside the boundaries of said functions, as detailed in its constitution, the less worth saving it therefore is. QED.

The liberals of the '60s were right, eviscerated or not (and I'd certainly be one of the people to eviscerate them for many of their attributes), to put ideology before government. If your ideology is less important to you than loyalty to your government, what do you stand for other than the government - which is itself a constantly changing entity, so that you stand for nothing?

Libertarian (basically, anyway) though I am, I'm not that angry sort of political activist, who can't see any positives about his country until his issue is dealt with; it's impossible for anyone with a real sense of perspective about the world's past and present, I feel, to be too furious about what we have. Nevertheless (even though I'm sure Chuck Norris is just talking tough), as the federal government and its legislators continue to sell us up the creek financially and further restrict our freedoms - and as the system continues to insulate itself against all possible changing of its apocalypse-bound course - I become more and more concerned with the question of at what point I can no longer truthfully call my government my legitimate representative.

(Hmmmm. That van's been parked across the street all day now...)

Adam and Steve, et al,
I don't have a problem with people advocating removing themselves from a government they find abhorrent. But why now? Where were these freedom fighters when actual Bill of Rights freedoms and guarantees were being infringed upon? Illegal wiretapping? No problem. Suspension of Habeus Corpus? No problem? Add 5% to my tax bill? Raise the flag of the Texas Republic and exercise your 2nd Amendment rights to keep your hard earned capital gains! If this was about an increase of the tax rate for the lowest income earners that actually pay taxes, there would be no outcry for secession. This is not about the Government intruding into people's rights and lives, this is about money and it's bullshit.
While we spent eight years in the wilderness, I was thinking about what I could do to make America a better place (in my opinion). I worked my ass off to help the President get elected and I send frequent criticisms through the networks I established during the campaign. "America, love it, and make it a better place" is the patriot's duty. Secessionist talk IS treasonous when your not willing to accept that elections have consequences.

sorry- "when you're not willing"

"Secessionist talk IS treasonous when your not willing to accept that elections have consequences."

I don't disagree... but I also don't think talk of leaving the country because of being unhappy with election results just started since the Obama election.

In fact, I recall similar comments being made after BOTH Bush elections. The individuals making those comments then did not speak for the entire Democratic party. The individuals (there's that word again) making them now likewise don't represent the entire Republican party.

You will note, Steve, that what we're talking about is not people threatening (or offering) to leave the country if an election turns out other than the way they'd like. We're talking about states and even regions leaving the country. There is a substantial difference, not unlike the difference between saying, just for example, that you're going to reform the earmark system and you're going to eliminate earmarks.

I think maybe we need to react to what people actually say.

There were certainly liberals who offered to withdraw sections of the country from the United States, and they were suitably swacked by voters. And yes, the Republican Party did smear the entire Democratic Party for that small minority. (They're still trying to do it, but the "radicalism" of the relatively moderate Democratic Party doesn't look so radical anymore, because it's not. Seriously: a 4% increase in marginal tax rates for the highest tax bracket constitutes socialism? Is anyone not on the extreme right going to believe that?) The Democrats, who if nothing else certainly tolerated the radical talk of yesteryear, paid a severe political price for it.

My point is, Republicans right now are repeating the Democrats' mistakes. And, for me, this is entertaining. In fact, it almost makes growing old worthwhile, seeing the pendulum swing one more time.

It is an amazing thing to watch.

"You will note, Steve, that what we're talking about is not people threatening (or offering) to leave the country if an election turns out other than the way they'd like. We're talking about states and even regions leaving the country."

Uh, I think you watch too many bad movies if you think Chuck Norris really has the power to make that happen.

As for the reform/eliminate comment....take it up with Barry "line by line" Obama.

You've made a critical error in your thinking. Allow me to set you straight.

Chuck Norris and other like minded union busters are idiots, not conservatives.

Of course, your inability to recognize the difference, puts you much closer to one than the other, and we all know you don't consider yourself a conservative!

Wally: I think your diagnosis of just where all this secessionist talk is coming from is largely on the nose - just partisan grumbling. But others were indeed carrying on with a liberty-based agenda during the wiretapping and all else; the aforementioned Free Staters and a number of other fringe-ish elements.

But concerning the whole question of making America better being the duty of the patriot, I think it's rather ironic for you to say so, as our nation was founded by people who understood that keeping hold of our liberties are more important than patriotism, and so cast off their own country as a result. This treason against their duty we celebrate every year.

Point taken, Adam. But in rebelling against a monarchy the Framers put in place a mechanism to allow change without revolution. No?

And, in any case, I don't think any of the Americans rebelling against the English demanded to be seriously regarded as English patriots. Republicans, on the other hand, seem to think of themselves as patriotic even as they tolerate elements that preach the destruction of the united States.

In our system, you can be against the government while still for the country. What we're seeing more of in the Republican Party is people who are against not just the government, but against the country. Glen Beck and Chuck Norris and the rest are certainly clowns, and they're certainly not patriots.

Tom, I fully grant that the Republicans are just blowing smoke. It's the predicament of those fringe "true believers" out there I find more interesting.

Wally: True and yet not. Yes, the mechanism remains via which We The People might rise up and reform our government.

But that's merely a question of very orderly mob rule. What about individual rights, which are really something of a different thing? Which brings us right round back to my concern - that the system by which I was meant to control the government's and others' influence in my life is being slowly but very effectively smashed. And that seems to be the problem these secessionists see, one which I can't dismiss.

This post is so much less specific than I want it to be, but I just got home from work... Gonna go pass out now.

Many of us who supported Barack Obama are hoping that one of our most important Constitutional rights will be restored under his administration. Freedom from unreasonable search and seizure was abrogated under the Cheney/Bush (giving credit where credit is due)administration. Being able to make a private phone call will certainly help secessionists organize.

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